European Union for CDZers

[Socrates]

This is a general thread for CDZers to express their point of view on Europe. Feel free to express your point of view without any refraining, even if it goes on the other way as one would think (that is we are fucking pretty cool guys). Just please no clear free insult. Sorry if some CDZers from out of Europe feel less concerned, but CDZ is rather European anyway (things went like that, it wasn't designed like that) ; but those people are welcome to take part in the discussion.

I can think of several starting questions :
- Do you on the whole agree with the idea of a European construction ? Do you like how it has been done so far ? And how it seems to be going to be done in the future ?
- What are your bigger expectations/fears ?
- Do you think we should mimick the USA as for the organization ?
- Are you content with the idea of a Franco-German leading axis, be it already the case or a possibility ?
- What is your opinion on the UK inside Europe ?
- What is your opinion on Switzerland and Norway ?

I hope I can prove Stapel wrong with this thread (ie. : no political debate at CDZ). And I hope that, if debate there is, it will be less dumb that what we can find at CFC, ie. : Europ vs USA. Boring at the end of the day.

[DrAlimentado]

screw Bush!

[DrAlimentado]

but seriously...

I am not all that enthralled by the idea of european union, in some practical ways it is partly inevitable but I like europe politically as much as i like my own government.

bunch of wankers.

will the european union make the world a better place? if I can be convinced of that - in political AND humanitarian terms (actually the same thing but...) then I wil be in favour of it, begrudgingly.

[Pastorius]

@Norway and Switzerland:

I am somewhat glad Norway isnt in the EU. Although the agreement we have is rather hurting for us, with no real power, and paying billions to have the agreement.

The EMU gives severe limits to what monetary and fiscal policies a country can follow. Also, if say Germany has a recession, while say Greece's economy has an expansion, then the European Central Bank would adjust to the fact that Germany is a much bigger economy than Greece, which would hurt Greece's expansion. So I am in favor of independent policy setting.

The EU subsidy system - especially for agriculture: Government subsidies lead to production where there would normally be none or little - in the case of the EU, the agriculture subsidies lead to overproduction, which is then dumped in developing countries, ruining the developing countries' comparative advantage in agricultural production. Add to that toll barriers, and you pretty much screw up the developing countries' chance of improvement.

Free trade is possible without a regional agreement like the EU. Besides, the way the EU sets barrier against the non-EU world, it is less of a perfect freetrade agreement, which I cannot support from a somewhat educated position.

@the axis:
well, Germany and France are some of the largest economic powers, so it is fitting really, that they take the lead.

just my 2 Norwegian Kroner - 1 Euro being about 8 kroner

[yndy]

quote:screw Bush!

That’s an excellent cohesion point for the European countries and thus justifies the purpose of the EU.
From the perspective of a citizen of a country which has just finalized its negotiations to join the EU, I believe it to be a good construction so far and even if it was long for you guys it will be a very good experience for the joining countries which benefit of the experience of the EU in legislation and development.

From your side, I see my country joining the EU, pretty damn profitable for large European companies which expand like their markets tremendously. Now you might have a slight problem of losing jobs but that’s a form of progress also.

I think the Franco – Germanic axis has become less important in the last 40 years and will continue to do so as new countries join the Union.

As for UK from one point and Norway and Switzerland for the other, I’d rather not comment but think that the people took the decision that seemed to be in their best interest.

I’m actually seeing EU continue to expand in the future, with Turkey in progress and maybe other neighboring countries in the long run (thinking about some former SU countries but also Mediterranean countries with strong ties with France.

[Schip]

I personally don't see the benefit of a discussion about political issues here but what the hell I'd give it a go.

The main concern for the EU IMO is that they won't be able to make any decisions anymore. We should change the voting system so that everybody can vote for any party/person they like. No more representatives from each country, simply the best people on the right spots.

The two major changes we need to make in the coming two decades are cleaning up the European balance sheet and start thinking as a European citizen, rather than in different nationalities.

Otherwise the EU is doomed I think. A hell of a task.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Schip

I personally don't see the benefit of a discussion about political issues here but what the hell I'd give it a go.

So why are you posting ? See : answers so far include a French guy (the EU finds its roots in the French-German relationships), an English guy (damn Brits ! a country not very active in the EU construction), a Norwegian <s>wood</s> guy (a country that oddly isn't part of the EU), a Rumanian guy (a country which is about to enter the EU), and a Dutch guy (an old EU country at the center of Europe). Quite interesting to see people's points of view, methinks.

I'll answer my points :
- I'm very fond of the general idea of the European Union, I quite like how it was done so far (considering the post-WWII mess and the Atlantic links due to the Cold War), but I'm both enthusiastic and sceptic about the future of the EU.
- My expectations : I hope the whole of Europe can one day be united inside this entity, which isn't far from happening now, if you don't look at other ex-USSR countries. It will prove to the world that the Old Continent can live in peace and harmony after having been the example of total barbarism and hatred. The idea of total war giving birth to the will to live together is a nice revenge.
My fears : I don't know how we'll run this large entity, on the economical scale, on the language scale. I don't want the EU to be strongly bureaucratic ; this is a rather touchy issue, on which I have no clear answer nor point of view. I also hope we won't end up like another USA, more below.
- I would be very sad to see Europe like the USA : after having wanted the opposite (when I was younger), I now don't want to have a federal state which would be totally disconnected from the local expectations. I don't want a "President of Europe" in its own right, nor a "European government". I'm rather unaware of the real status today, so I hope it's not already the case, but I don't think so. I would like to read a good summary of the upcoming European constitution (anyone has a link for a summary ?), so as to see if it's any good, or just full of crap.
- I think the Franco-German axis has always been a reality, too bad it was even more visible with the Iraq affair. The UK, Spain, Italy and Poland played this game (how could you describe it ?) very badly, so don't blame it : you can't blame both France and Germany to lead the EU if at the same time the other large countries are Uncle Sam's puppets. I'm for larger countries to lead the EU, so that includes the mentionned ones, and if France and Germany can lead to that, all the better.
- My opinion on the UK is a bitter one. As time passes and shows the UK's real motives (ie. : motives, you said ?), I'm becoming closer and closer to de Gaulle's point of view : the UK can only delay the European construction. I don't follow the UK's logic at all, unless they like to be so ambiguous all the time. They cried to enter Europe, which they eventually did once de Gaulle was dead, but what since ? The UK should think about what they really want to be and to do, I'm not for second-class members.
- Switzerland : Really odd country, I really don't care if they're in or not, they showed to be only interested in their own country and nothing else, so let them stay the European hole if that is their wish (see Diplomacy's board ). They're welcome to come in if they want to be active.
Norway : I remember the whales affair being a touchy issue (or not ?). Really strange, and what a pity. If you want to have privileges, you must give a bit of your power. Up to them, really...


Other questions :
- What do you think of the European constitution, which will be THE issue in 2005 ? Develop a bit, as I'm sure many people are unaware of what it entails (me first).
- What do you think of Turkey ? Should they come or not ?

Don't hesitate to continue the discussion about the first questions, or other stuff related to the EU that you want to talk about. If this thread can help some people (OK... me !) what Europe really is, all the better.

After all, the EU surely helped me go to Breda easily and quickly ! Let's find out what Europe needs.

[barbu1977]

Hi all, I want to give my Québecois/Canadian point of view of what is good and what is bad about the European Community right now.

- The whole concept is very good, you have different cultures with different languages that have similar lifestyles/religion/beleifs. You should be able to unite the economics, moving of poeple, transport.
- This is exacly why canada was formed in 1867 you may not want to compare too mutch on the US beacause that country was founded whith people from tha same culture and it is later that the differences started to grow from state to state.
- What Europe has done is a bit the same problem that we have in canada. Athought your main gouvernement should be your national governement (here our main gouvernement should be our provincial one) you still elect people at the european gouvernement(we do the same). Those electect have the tendencies to think that they are at a higher place and can take decisions for the country they represent. That doesn't work very well. I think a system plike the UN, where te delegates are named by the country's goverment would be mutch more powerfull, since you only have one deciding center per country.
- As said before before intergrating Turkey (or any other country) you should wonder first if they have the same lifestyle, beileifs, morales before wondering if it will be good economic move.

quote:- Are you content with the idea of a Franco-German leading axis, be it already the case or a possibility ?
- What is your opinion on the UK inside Europe ?
- What is your opinion on Switzerland and Norway ?

I think you will always get countries that are more implicated, some that are reticient to get in and some that will say they may leave and in time theese countries will not always be the same. But theese discution will certainly help the federation to adapt in time to the changes. So let UK, Switzerland and Norway do their thing, when you will succeed, they will join.

That was my two cents.

[ProPain]

mmm, a thread about Europe and Swingue hasnt posted yet.

SWINGUE, IT'S ABOUT EUROPE IN HERE!!!!!

[Swingue]

Oke PP here is my opinion.

PEACE AND STABILITY
For centuries Europe has witnesed internal wars with the sad 'highlights' WOI and WOII in the early 20th century. For this reason the EU (starting as the European Community for Coal and Steel) started. To make sure that those horrible wars WILL NEVER EVER happen again. For over 50 years we've seen peace and stability in our region, a period which is unmarked in history of Europe. For this reason alone I am a huge fan of the EU and its progress.

ECONOMICS
As a citizen of the Netherlands, a country which has been an immigration country for the past 500 years I know that our economy depends on trade. (Hell we would trade our grandmothers if we can make money on it). Our economy has big worldwide players like Shell, Unilever, Philips and others but we rely on trade with other countries, most of them European countries. This is what makes our economy strong, so the stronger ties we have the better. For most other countries in the EU the same story counts as well.
I do realize that the economies of the different countries are not alike and that the ECB has to do what is best for Europe. This means sometimes that it is not good for the individual countries. But if it is good for the EU as a whole, it will be good for you as a country as well.

THE EURO
Though prizes rose like hell after the introduction of the Euro it is not fair blaming it on the currency, it is a moment where many business owners raised prices (some way too much). I love the fact that I can travel around and pay in the same currency (even in Denmark, Sweden and Switzerland). I love the fact that I immediately can see what the difference in price is in the different countries and it makes me feel more European.

SOLIDARITY
The joining of the 10 new countries this year, Bulgaria and Romania in 2007, Croatia in 2009 and Turkey in 2015 not only means a bigger internal market and bigger area of peace and stability it also offers those people a chance on a better life. The joining of Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland proves this. After joining the EU the standard of living rose dramatically. If you visit the Baltics you already see this happening, if you drive around Hungary you see this happening. And I hear about projects going to take part in Romania, Croatia and other countries because they are joining the EU. They deserve this as well. And to add to this, I think that central Europe has much more potential as a region than western Europe has nowadays. We've become rich and lazy, real dynamics you can find in Poland, Baltics, Hungary, Romania and the Balkan. That is where it is going to happen in the next 30 years. I am glad if they are part of the EU then, cause we'll need them.

SWITZERLAND & NORWAY
In fact these country are almost part of the EU. Norway is one of the countries who is best in implementing EU law (even better than France!). And in Switzerland they have no problem in accepting euro's. They are members of the EU, on paper they are out.

GREAT BRITAIN
This is the odd one out. I am really curious why they are in the EU. Cause they don't want to, at least that is the idea that I get. Ireland wants to be part. Even Scotland wants to be part. England just wants to be the odd one out. Well guys, the empire where the sun never sets died a long time ago: WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE and realize that even if you are on an island you are connected to the EU and better make the best of it.

All in all I am a big fan of the EU, yes there are problems with transparancy, yes there are problems with democracy, yes it is bureaucratic. But they have managed to make peace and stability for 59 years now and that is an achievement I have much respect for!